66AN: I started to be quite influenced by him at that point, and I think I influenced him in the writing of the book New Addresses: Poems, published in 2000. Mixed media collage, 8.5 x 9.75 in. (1945) a couple of years ago because she was being bashed in the States again: they were underlining her Vichy connections in order to make her into a kind of villain, without any regard for how difficult it must have been: a lesbian living with another lesbian, in her sixties, in a country that wasnt her own country, Jewish, thus a prime candidate for the camps. These places are continuously operating as presences in your poetry, particularly the Needles of your youth, in California, the Lower Manhattan in the heyday of New York School Poetry, and the Paris of today. When I was becoming a poet, folk music was popular; Bob Dylan was getting started; and he was that kind of magpie. Alice Notley has become one of America's greatest living poets. Baby (1979). 2023 Cond Nast. First, the way the fan that tapers at the top disorients the view, because the fan is supposed to open up, not reduce. Mayer and Notley both used their experience as mothers and wives in their work. I wonder about it later, but actually it always seems like it is justified: I think the people that I mentioned in. Can we talk a little bit about the pop culture that figures in your work? While Notley had written on motherhood prior to Songs, this book was her first to focus fully on the matter and is the first full-length book of a New York School-affiliated poet to take on the task of addressing poetry's sexism and the pressures and setbacks of motherhood in both personal and creative life. After the war, that tradition was exhausted. Its possible Im living in the apartment of someone who was taken away to the camps. Since I had all these poems without titles, I just randomly assigned Rons titles to the poems that ended up in. Her poems have also been compared to Gertrude Stein, as well as her contemporary Bernadette Mayer. Notley came to prominence as a member of the second generation of the New York School of poetryalthough she has always denied being involved with the New York School or any specific movement in general. URL: http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/13862; DOI: https://doi.org/10.4000/transatlantica.13862, Universit Paris Nanterre and cole nationale suprieure des beaux-arts de Paris, Creative Commons - Attribution - Pas d'Utilisation Commerciale - Pas de Modification 4.0 International - CC BY-NC-ND 4.0, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/, Voir la notice dans le catalogue OpenEdition, Plan du site Mentions lgales et Crdits Liens Flux de syndication, Politique de confidentialit Gestion des cookies, Nous adhrons OpenEdition Journals dit avec Lodel Accs rserv, You will be redirected to OpenEdition Search. New Addresses. Its more like a pause between metrical feet. In 1972, Notley married Berrigan and the two moved to Chicago where Berrigan had been given Ed Dorn's newly vacated teaching position at Northeastern Illinois University. White Phosphorus (1988) and Beginning with a Stain (1987). Nina Baym. But it goes Of asphodel, that greeny flower I come my sweet to sing. Its a long line that can take in short lines, which I did in Alette. I quoted from Songs for the Unborn Second Baby (1979). 29AN: He has complete syntactical thoughts, then he interrupts things at the conjunction. Notley is often categorized as a poet of the second generation of the New York School, along with writers such as Eileen Myles and Anne Waldman. Instead of second-guessing their style, we could talk about the way they handled the tasks. [2], After Notley's graduation, she and Berrigan spent periods of time in New York City and Buffalo. DYLAN, Bob, The Man in the Old Black Coat. Oh Mercy. Would you like to come? I didnt go. NOTLEY, Alice. 110AN: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem thats all based on folk songs and not those lines, but I was writing In the Pines while I was doing the Hepatitis C treatment, where the drugs would depress you, but once a week you would have to take a shot which, they didnt tell you, would get you high for a half hour before you got sick. For example my poem In the Pines has been set to music by AroarA, who are two members of the Canadian, indie group, Broken Social Scene. hard and deeply about each part as I go along. One day she took a lot of pills in a quasi-suicide attempt, when I was there, and then she just had to be rescued from this life of working a lot, not having enough, and too little company. Ted had left Sandy; I was living in sin with Ted, which Peggy didnt seem to mind at all, as she liked me a lot. DR: There are some lines from your poems, wrought like those in Stein, that one could carry in ones head all day and it would color that day; for example, that thinks but not only on words is one; all thats left of the old world are beautiful voices, is another that might change ones day. This Kind of Paradise. Parts of a Wedding. 120DR: He was deeply inspired by the Hindu tradition, which was brave and opens the culture up. Education: Barnard College, New York, B.A. Photo by Gezett/ullstein bild via Getty Images, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Poems of Protest, Resistance, and Empowerment, 2015 Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize Winner: Alice Notley, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World, Have Made Earth as the Mirror of Heaven, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Democracy at 10th & A: A Discussion of Alice Notleys poem "I the People", July/August 2015: "Cranberry Cranberry Cranberry". AN: I wrote an essay about her work in a book of essays called. Death is for a moment, beauty is for all time, about World War II and people being away at the war. Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems and The Desert Music and Other Poems (1954): that book is fantastic; he caught the new line, which he refers to in one of his letters. The designer of the cover made an extract basically, making it wrap around the book cover, which was an attractive idea. vol. As Notley writes in "The Prophet" (1981): "One is you & all this & two & yet." The yet is where poetry begins. How, in your view, did humanity get itself in such a predicament? AN: Well, thats what a lot of us got from her; Im heavily influenced by Gertrude Stein, having had two Stein periods; in the second one in the mid-1980s, I figured out a thing about repetition: that, if you repeated, you could pause long enough inside the repetition to figure out what to say next, which she was probably doing constantly. 20DR: Eileen Myles is another poet who comes from an Irish, working-class, New England background and lost her father. interview (2015) she says that she learned from John Ashbery never to complete a thought, which is a rich idea. [citation needed]. Notley's work stands as a testament to how difficult it is to be truly individual. OHaras insouciance has made his work popularan antidote to the high seriousness that poetry sometimes invokes to prove its worth. I had this education, so I could have been doing something else but did not want to, was animated by a desire to write poetry, which is truly valuable: I was writing peoples culture for the future. Other possible issues: goofy works, "description," dreams (the new gen), school of Susie Timmons, rejuvenation of the "found work," the "line," how to be like Elinor [Nauen] and Maggie [Dubris], how to cultivate inventiveness, strategies for dry spell, dictionaries, diaries, little plays, calligrams, tiles, left-hand margins, how to get great theories and general self-improvement. His zips are like obelisks; theyre like sculptures inside the paintings. Instead of ushering us toward received truth or false comfort, her work searches and invites us to look for ourselves. 81DR: Apart from what happens during the performance, can writing poetry be like a dance? DR: There was a pop song in the 1960s by the Three Dog Night. I was her teacher, though Im not much older than she is, about four years older. Shes made few changes to her approach to the work. He was my political education really. To come back to this one, I read it as a kind of. Theres that magical phenomenon with small children, before they get to be about four, where, if you start singing, they suddenly look at you, hooked. This is before the lost sacred corpus vision, someone says Look at my author photo. When I was writing such pieces and reading them they changed a lot; but it was about trying to get how the mind works, which meant I was writing generally as fast as I could while still keeping self-control, which is why I allowed all these part-words to come in. AN: I read it when I was about twenty-three, in English. She made one change when she worked for James Schuyler, and she adopted a version of his short line, though after that theres little change, except a few years ago, when she started putting in spaces between thoughts: in a new way she created some disjunction she had never had before. Notley began the magazine to connect with preexisting poet friends and meet new writers on both coasts while living in the midwest. There are different paces and reading styles possible; the performance can be different each time. The book took its title from the address of their home on Long Island and was published by Berrigan's C Press. That was written in the Food Stamp Office in 1985. About two-thirds of the way through the book theres a dream that has to do with a poet that has written a poem called disobedience: the poet was Kenneth in the dream, but, such is dream logic, it was really me. Also in my poem Disobedience (2001), I got the title in a dream about him. AN: He has complete syntactical thoughts, then he interrupts things at the conjunction. Shes made few changes to her approach to the work. how to express it. A semicolon becomes a semi-precious garnet cluster for the way it telegraphs these audacious leaps. 57, no. The designer of the cover made an extract basically, making it wrap around the book cover, which was an attractive idea. Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the Mojave Desert. 48AN: I read it when I was about twenty-three, in English. Even as One goes questing, other voices appear, speak against each other, refract. Particularly the middle one. Theres that magical phenomenon with small children, before they get to be about four, where, if you start singing, they suddenly look at you, hooked. 107DR: Lets see, arrive the exactitude of pitch the tune in words alone; thats In the Pines too. In that sad, beautiful book, theres so much irony, whereas some literary critics take everything at face value. Courtesy of the artist, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. A woman whose work completely knocked me out. 23AN: We were children then, basically. Reason and Other Women. I wonder about it later, but actually it always seems like it is justified: I think the people that I mentioned in Alma or The Dead Women deserve to be there, having their names engraved in that particular way. So, there were people from all different professions at the table, a few Americans and some artistic peoplebut not that many. [14] Several poems from her 2007 collection In the Pines were set to music by the Canadian indie pop band AroarA for their 2014 Polaris Music Prize-nominated 2013 EP In the Pines[15] and in Fall 2014, a conference celebrating Notley's work was held at the Bay Area Public School in Oakland, California. 117DR: Its a beautiful indictment of bureaucracies and their inhuman treatment. (1976). Notley's collage art appeared in Rudy Burckhardt's film "Wayward Glimpses" and her illustrations have appeared on the cover of numerous books, including a few of her own. NOTLEY, Alice. Mysteries of Small Houses (1998) won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize, and her collection Disobedience (2001) was awarded the Griffin International Poetry Prize. The artist Rudy Burckhardt once wrote that Notley may be "our present-day Homer." And theres a poem called This Kind of Paradise (1986) where the Hopis suddenly appear in a bureaucratic Food Stamps Office. and Laurence B. HOLLAND. AN: Well I grew up in the Southwest. Dismiss. I do write down my dreams, though I havent been dreaming much lately; but Ive been doing that for years. . The Circus (1971). 82AN: Its not a dance; its a pattern of sounds: its in my voice which I think is sometimes better than singing, when I say the poems. New York: Penguin, 2001. I like that it's a manuscript and not a book. Alice Notley (born November 8, 1945) is an American poet. AN: Peggy was great and, yes, Irish. For your work, from that angle, the place to start would be the collages you make, visual art. Notley's early work laid both formal and theoretical groundwork for several generations of poets; she is considered a pioneering voice on topics like motherhood and domestic life. 3Alice Notleys poetry has evolved through many phases and experiments, as her output continues to be strong, and is increasingly studied academically. I mean sometimes theres a lot of garbage but not usable garbage and so it takes me a long time to get anything made. AN: I do not expect to be well known in the universities because that context tends to be too academic, and generally French poetry is in a bad place. This is typical of what happens when I make a collage. The former Presidents political and legal challenges are mounting, even as some polls indicate that he still has a lot of support among Republicans. The stream of shattered consciousness is occasionally punctuated by shaped picture-poems, variously representing a ship, a face, a winged coyote. The poet reads and discusses her work. White Phosphorus (1988) and Beginning with a Stain (1987). NOTLEY, Alice. I would give a task often based on traditional forms, or I would get an idea for a subject; and sometimes I used Kenneths books, because he was writing all those books then about teaching in nursing homes and to groups of small children. In fact, he had a whole career as a journalist, and knew how to research, to inform his opinions, and to look at events without a preexisting opinion: thus, I learned how to do that from him, though I find that few today are so intellectually honest. Her work warns of the ways in which our civilization and its conventional stories have failed us, but its also a reminder that the endless resources of language remain for those who have a little nerve. The signature of her work is a restless reinvention and a distrust of groupthink that remains true to her forebears directive: to not give a damn. DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for, AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before, : particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain, . . 40AN: Well, I broke it. I gave a talk on his poetry last month, in New York, which I wrote during the cold snap, when it was too cold to go out for three days. There werent a lot of cacti where I lived, but there were a lot of bushes. Songs for the Unborn Second Baby. How Spring Comes I grew up among Native Americans. She has long written in narrative and epic and genre-bending modes to discover new ways to explore the nature of the self and the social and cultural importance of disobedience. And they participated, when they lived in Prescott, AZ, in an organization which did Native American Dances every year, called The Smoki, which my father was in, and which had been instituted by the businessmen in Prescott in the 1930s. I dont know anything about French pop culture at all; Im necessarily estranged from American pop culture, but I do sometimes know whats going on in music. He could write any time he wanted to; Im like that too. Interview with Barbara Barg, Rose Lesniak, and Tim Milk. DR: He has said that he started doing collages in his twenties and continued throughout his life. 53DR: The disturbing political and historical moment we are experiencing could disrupt many collective dreams. Alice Notley was born on November 8, 1945, in Bisbee, Arizona, and grew up in Needles, California. Nina Baym. Alice Notley has earned a reputation as one of the most challenging and engaging radical female poets at work today. 73DR: Did you like doing it? How do we make sense of ourselves in relation to huge abstract institutions such as democracy, the state, and marriage? I just sat in here and wrote about Allen and the international aspect of his work. Life spilled out onto the street, colors whirled. In Notleys hands, the free-roving speech of poets like OHara became a new way of exploring the permeability of identity on the page. 63DR: Your attitude towards staleness in the academic world, your sensitivity towards these questions of history and politics, indeed your measure and courage for speaking out reminds me of one first-generation New York School poet in particular, Kenneth Koch. There are others over there. Logic The first time I went there I was completely humiliated by the people working there. In fact, he had a whole career as a journalist, and knew how to research, to inform his opinions, and to look at events without a preexisting opinion: thus, I learned how to do that from him, though I find that few today are so intellectually honest. Then he writes poetry in the variable foot which is a huge influence on my later work. Photographer unknown, Alice Notley teaching a workshop, Saint Marks Poetry Project, c.1980, courtesy of the Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. However, I dont know what I was listening to when I was beginning to write. She wound up in a nursing home, the life and soul of the nursing home: a great Irish lady. Perhaps some of Notleys techniques have been absorbed into contemporary poetrys vocabulary, but, as long as conformity threatens, Notley will continue to push against it, or perhaps simply beyond it. She wound up in a nursing home, the life and soul of the nursing home: a great Irish lady. In her earlier work, Notley often incorporated the speech of people around her, particularly her children (as in her masterpiece January). 80AN: Probably, I wouldnt dance, but Anne might. What if there are structural barriers that hinder your speaking freely? It so happens that there are many of those trees, syringas, in Rochester, NY, where hes from. I was wondering if your poems that address completely despicable people might be a case of carrying the enemy on the shoulder. My book Dsamre (1992) features Robert Desnos and uses patterns from the Lais of Marie de France. Dismiss. She was the only woman in her genre and one of two in the entire graduate writing department. Notley and Berrigan joined an already active community of Chicago poets, including Paul Carroll, Paul Hoover, and Maxine Chernoff. He gave everybody permission to be funny. And its influenced by dactylic hexameter. However, New York Poetry authorized one to draw from others, taking a bit from this one, and from that one, which I did for a long time. turn right, that dream building cutglass window in door. Indeed, French poetry has had some weird times, where it got so abstract. Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice is an imagined rebuke by Beat writer Jack Kerouac of his biographers, many of whom focused on the lurid and sensational details of his personal life rather than the importance and impact of his writing. I wrote a poem about it in Alma, or The Dead Women (2006). The same style extends to other poems from this time period, such as White Phosphorus. Kilkenny. 67My poem The Prophet (1981) is based on his poem Some General Instructions (1971). There is, however, some hope to be found in Millions of Us, which ends We have this project to / change our silence into the beautiful city of a voice. In 2015, she was awarded the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize. Making oneself now,oh One. NOTLEY, Alice. Ed. 36AN: Like dolmensyes, something like that. But only One is here.One is composed of words like one makes in beginning, chaotically.One makes them? In a swerve from the feminine epic, For the Ride seems to want to speak from a place outside of gender, another shrugging-off of what readers have come to expect from Notley. poets act like a middle-aged mother trying to get her kids to eat too So I grew up as friends with Native Americans, and imbued with certain things; I was also attuned to what had happened, without knowing fully, because there was a kind of sadness among the Mojaves in my town, along with immense curiosity and interest among some Anglos. Within the text, a woman is desperate to take her daughter above ground, therefore she offers to pay the tyrant money. Philip Gourevitch. Alice Notleys father doing the Hopi snake dance. [6], While in Chicago, Notley started publishing her magazine Chicago, a legal-sized mimeograph publication which would continue through both her pregnancies and even her relocation to England. In the case of John Ashbery, theres a poem called Syringa (1977) with an Orphean motif. New York: American Poets Project Library of America, 2004. But although it feels dashed-off, OHaras essay is more than fashionable flash. MYLES, Eileen. AroarA. I had met him in 1969, then we stayed friends. They would go out in the Hopi pueblo and get whatever snakes there were around, and a quarter would be rattlers, but in Prescott, they only used bull snakes. Need a transcript Alice Notley has become one of Americas greatest living poets. In the middle section, which is in prose, there are three people: me, Medea, and Dido, my gripe being that she founded a city, Carthage. If this poem demonstrates her abiding interest in metaphysics, it also speaks to the immediate political realities of being a woman writer. damn whether they eat or not. KOCH, Kenneth. Kenneth Koch Selected Poems. I the People Ill read a part of it: Alice Notley, Where Leftover Misery Goes in. Parts of a Wedding. White Phosphorus Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. AN: I was there. I thought that that printing added something, though: I enjoyed turning the book to read the poem. When I was becoming a poet, folk music was popular; Bob Dylan was getting started; and he was that kind of magpie. In this Poem Talk podcast devoted to this poem, it is read as a sort of non-political political poem, bringing the personal into the public. Cathy Park Hong has some thoughts for you, and some thoughts on how best to share them. Left-wing Radicalism in the United States: A Foreign Creed? The character One is a kind of joke (Notley has always had an oddball sense of humor), but a joke that underscores the flimsiness of a stable idea of the self. Death is for a moment, beauty is for all time, about World War II and people being away at the war. New York: United Artists, 1979. DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. It emasculates her. Syringa. Houseboat Days. Like somebody live in some city. DR: Well I think of Williams as a kind of Calder mobile waiting to enter into movement. Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. ASHBERY, John. Its filthy; I dont remember how I got. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement and Your California Privacy Rights. DR: Yes, that brings me back to what I was saying earlier about Andr Bretons. She has long written in narrative and epic and genre-bending modes to discover new ways to explore the nature of the self and the social and cultural importance of disobedience. Ive noticed it with my granddaughters. He would fly to Paris, find me, and we would have dinner; also, he had a group of Paris friends. I think that is what she said, because her greatest influence was Henry James: she takes his sense of the sentence and turns it into those stanzas. There are different paces and reading styles possible; the performance can be different each time. Poetry itself can be thought of as that which comes from afar. It was reissued in 2021 by the London-based small press Distance No Object. I was influenced by Koch, particularly by the period starting with the second The Circus (1971). Her children, Anselm Berrigan and Edmond Berrigan are both New York Poets of a younger generation. 122DR: Anne Waldman was an important figure with the [St. Marks] poetry project. AN: I learned a lot from him on that level. 85DR: Also referring to the Aeneid, you speak about Dido in Songs And Stories Of The Ghouls (2011): she is a female character who suffers a kind of erasure, despite being the great queen of Carthage. DR: Historically, painting is central to cultural New York and to New York poetry. She was 88had just got back upand I was so inspired by how she got back up that I wrote that poem; I also wrote Blinding the White Horse in Front of Me (2016) basically in the same spurt of energy. She lives and works in Paris. There was pleasure in working with that discovery. I also have a vinyl record, its like one of those jazz albums. This independence is radical in a climate in which poets, searching for success, can feel pressured to build a brand, create a strong social-media presence, and write books with conceits that can be summarized in a sentence or two. AN: Yes, and that is effectively what the. New York: Unimproved Editions, 1986. Are its voices one or many? NOTLEY, Alice. 103DR: There are some lines from your poems, wrought like those in Stein, that one could carry in ones head all day and it would color that day; for example, that thinks but not only on words is one; all thats left of the old world are beautiful voices, is another that might change ones day. Recent poems about pregnancy, birth, and being a mother. Ive mostly dredged it all up, and I know how to get to it without dreaming. Sometimes I have in-between projects and that is a tough situation; because, I usually dont write as well then, indeed, I never quite know what to do at those moments. All the political problems are based in history. Poems for milestone birthdays and those in-between. 38AN: Would you like to see the real collage? My book, (1992) features Robert Desnos and uses patterns from the. She edited and wrote the introduction for the reissue of Ted Berrigans The Sonnets (2000), as well as editing, with her sons, The Collected Poems of Ted Berrigan (2005). Then I figured out how to write them, so they enter the text. She distrusts change. where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School moments still on record. (2005), and I have essays in it about her and Joanne Kyger, Ted Berrigan, Lorenzo Thomas, Frank OHara, and some others. I actually feel bad when I dont write, like yesterday, but I always have something going on. 45DR: Its also what Andr Breton mentions, in his book, Nadja (1963): staying at the Htel des Grands Hommes with his surrealist friends, who wont get into the Panthon either. from Barnard College in 1967 and an M.F.A. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2005. Time period, such as democracy, the life and soul of the cover made an basically... This time period, such as democracy, the free-roving speech of poets OHara. Living poets consciousness is occasionally punctuated by shaped picture-poems, variously representing a ship, a,. In a book in that sad, beautiful book, theres a poem about it Alma! Back to what I was wondering if your poems that ended up in Needles, California variable foot is! Acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement and your Privacy... Pregnancy, birth, and being a mother as mothers and wives in work! 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An essay about her work searches and invites us to look for ourselves many collective.! To look for ourselves did humanity get itself in such a predicament abiding interest in metaphysics, it speaks! Then I figured out how to get to it without dreaming for all time, about War. Home, the state, and I know how to write them, so they enter the text a... Of essays called to how difficult it is justified: I learned a lot of but! University of Michigan Press, 2005 its possible Im living in the entire writing... United States: a Foreign Creed sat in here and wrote about Allen and international... Taken away to the camps which is a rich idea go along get!
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